Lost 3rd gear tonight :(

nomad wrote:That still means fook all to me lol i get the gist of it but far to complex for my little brain  .... so does that mean from the figures i put up from quaife  compared  to the figures you put up  i see the quaife ones are slightly less so are the cogs bigger or smaller .?

I get it, love maths; give me a challenge any day   Cogs would be smaller Leighton

lol trust me you don't wanna put that in a sticky

read the last paragraph and all will become clear for you  

so if you buy the gearset from quiafe do you not need to strengthen the casing too? i thought that the casing was the weakest part to the box as it twists on power?

You can get braces for the casing but I think its a question of how much power before a brace is needed.

Quaife puts less strain on the casing due to straighter helical cut on the gears.
If went the expense on a Quaife though I think I would be inclined to add a brace to keep investment safe.
Big part of gearbox breakage is down to what clutch you got & how you handle standing start & gear changes & of course how good the 20 year plus box is to start with.

as above
its the helical cut gears that put more strain on the casing as due to the teeth angle they are more inclined to pull apart which is why a straight cut gearset is the best option to give casing the best chance of survival.

I have had 3 different quaife gearsets fitted in my cars throughout the years, 2 dog boxes and countless standard boxes and as of yet ive never managed to put a gearset through the casing and that's with no brace fitted.
I know it can and has happened on more than one occasion but its mainly under mega hard launches with big powered cars running high torque.
as for the brace.......yes it will no doubt work to an extent but I know of a far cheaper way for you to stop this happening which is diy and I carried out tests on years ago and it wont cost you more than £15-20 to do. however what it wont do is prevent the gearset being punched through the bellhousing end which is why I never produced the things but itll do the same job as the brace

GTI-R US wrote:as above
its the helical cut gears that put more strain on the casing as due to the teeth angle they are more inclined to pull apart which is why a straight cut gearset is the best option to give casing the best chance of survival.

I have had 3 different quaife gearsets fitted in my cars throughout the years, 2 dog boxes and countless standard boxes and as of yet ive never managed to put a gearset through the casing and that's with no brace fitted.
I know it can and has happened on more than one occasion but its mainly under mega hard launches with big powered cars running high torque.
as for the brace.......yes it will no doubt work to an extent but I know of a far cheaper way for you to stop this happening which is diy and I carried out tests on years ago and it wont cost you more than £15-20 to do. however what it wont do is prevent the gearset being punched through the bellhousing end which is why I never produced the things but itll do the same job as the brace

Yes full job requires a plate welded in bell-housing end .
What's your diy trick !? is it the ozi style plate & metal impregnated resin sort of thing .
Is the casing much different on the later revision boxes ? I know the casing bolts went bigger & have read casing thickness increased & ribbing increased. I have never seen the later boxes to confirm this, sure you have though so any info on this would be interesting.

yes basically it was 00sid that made the first brace for the box which worked to an extent but did have flaws in its design.
kieron aka yellow weapon came up with a great idea of making a figure of 8 brace between the input and lay shaft to stop them pulling apart which would have been great on a drag car but not so clever on road car as you would have to lose 5th gear and it still never stopped the shaft punching through the bellhousing end.
 
my idea was much much simpler and would have worked around 5 years back now.
heres the idea as im not gonna bother producing these now but I carried out a lot of tests with a press and gearbox endcases we had in stock and it makes the endcase 5-6 times stronger fact!
 
all you need to do the job is some engineering swarf, fibreglass matting and some resin/hardener.
I made a mould for these but think I lost it when we moved to our bigger unit but you don't really need a mould if its just for your own box.
basically what youll need to do is coat the entire end of the box in resin about 4'' down from the end (this is the weak point) but before you coat it youll need to cover it in talcum powder, flour or grease so the resin does not actually stick to the box as such.
give it around 3 heavy coats then app[y fg matting then another coat of resin then add some swarf into the resin mix.
you need to build it up so its around 10mm thick all round and so all the voids right at the back of the end casing are completely filled with resin/matting.swarf.
once you've done this you should be able to tap the whole thing off the endcase, but it will be tight as its a glovelike fit.
once you have done that you will notice that there are 2 unused threaded bolt holes right at the end of the casing so you need to drill 2 holes through the fibreglass glove in order to fit 2 bolts make a 5mm steel or aluminium plate then attach the glove over the endcase then bolt the holder plate on top
that's it job done!
 
although the casings break from the inside out it will help hugely in strengthening the case.
simple way of looking at it is by this..............imagine you have a sheet of glass say 18''sq and lets say 3mm thick, now if that was in a frame you could punch this with your fist and smash it easily, but now put a 10mm sheet of fibreglass, swarf, resin directly in front of the sheet so its butted up tight then try break the sheet of glass with your fist........youll break your hand before you break the glass, so that was the theory and it does work.
 
however none of the above will stop the gearset punching through the bellhousing where the bearing is and tbh I don't know how you could remedy that not without designing a whole new thicker billet housing which is the reason I did not go ahead with mass producing the ready made fg endcase supports.
 
but as said earlier the volume that do actually break through punching bearing through bellhousing are few and far between anyway and even if it does happen at least your gearkit isn't sprawled all over the track in a thousand pieces lol

just made the above a sticky and moved it to gearbox section for anyone who wants to do it

Id be intrested in doing this at some point i think ...especially if i end up taking my box off at some point .

yeah its well worth doing and wont cost you hardly anything which is always a good thing

Lol, "engineering swarf"? Can u be a bit more specific? Is it small c shaped turning chips your on about?
CNC Turner by the way ;-) = free supply's :-)

lol yes they have to be specifically 12.78mm long in order for them to tie together matt

basically any swarf from a turning lathe that when mixed with the resin and matting will add strengh 

if your irish you could use wood shavings or paper from a shredder (no offence colin)  

Or potato peelings potatooooooooo

Ooh 12.78mm long now that would be a challenge! I'd have to get the right depth of cut,feedrate,chip breaker and material to achieve that!
Anyways thanks bob :-)

have you try this brace bob?

So would strips of plate bent to suit sandwiched between the fibreglass be just as effective  aslong as they was not to huge bit like fingers you get in lifting belts ?

yes had plate mk2 (as fooked the mould up on mk1 model as made it too big) fitted on my first track car ironically with the shotpeened box on car weve just bought back lol
then it was fitted when I bought a quaife and never had any problems with endcase damage.

but having said that I don't really launch my car as its for circuit not drag racing so the jury is out on this as to whether it is up to the job or not, but one things for certain, it definitely can only help with the strength of the rear casing as it was tested in a press and even hit the inner casing with a ballpin hammer to replicate a shaft pulling apart and it does work.

Leighton..........yes to be fair you could use anything to help adhere and strengthen the glove, I just used engineering swarf as it was the first thing that came into my head that would be easy to mix in with the resin to provide extra strength in layers coupled with the fg matting.
at end of the day its cheap and simple to do and to me its as effective as the brace that str made as neither will prevent the shaft and bearing from popping through the bellhousing so its one thing where cheap is good lol

So ive been thinking about this with various bits of ways of adding strength inbetween  the layers of the fibreglass so if its say 10mm thick lace on the 5mm thick of fibreglass then use metal strapping like the stuff used on pallet loads that way you can get that nice an tight  to create like a skeleton then the remaining 5mm of fibreglass reckon that would be nice and tight  or have i thought about it to much lmao ...

the metal shavings are enough tbh Leighton, even without them you still would not break the fg glove, youll be amazed as just how strong a piece of 10mm fibreglass with matting is especially when formed into a cylindrical shape

Thats what i meant bob i thought about it to much ....my little pea brain goes wandering off lol .

I haven't even got a pea brain just an empty void of nothingness now

Its all that work you do bob filled up in the morning then cleared out ready for the next day 

yep a couple of large jd's erases the memory and makes it all better again then it starts all over again

I dont drink so have to replace jd's for happy pills ..lol i may moan about it but in a sadistic way i prefer to keep busy ....