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Took this statement from johnny on here which was on another thread and how true it is
That just about sums up many things with these cars we have and many other vehicles too.
A cars setup in terms of power its running, the intended use of car i.e road, rally, sprint, circuit or drag use should be determined from the outset prior to build taking place.
Many people do not do this so have a car which is inappropriate for the use they desire as they have over complicated things in certain areas thinking that it will be better because theres more bits added.
In many cases with just a fast road car you don't need all the little electronic gadgets, so called bolt on bits that claim to give you extra power but in the end just give you more troubles and grief. As Johnny said 'simplicity is the key'
After getting involved with the tuning / mapping of these cars and others one thing I have learned from people that have been in the motorsport tuning game their whole lives is that many vehicles are best kept simple and a hell of a lot do not even require mapping as such, all they need is fuelling and ignition tweaks and carefully monitored afr's and knock levels throughout the rev range and providing both are acceptable with relevant ignition and fuelling in good order as well as accurate info being supplied to ecu then there is no need for full mapping to be carried out on the car. In a few cases now weve seen far better results on the dyno with people using this approach.
One recent pulsar we had in was running Nistune at a relatively low boost level of just under 1.2bar, car produced under 310bhp on the dyno printout passed to us,It had been mapped a month or so prior by a certain tuner who charged in excess of £760 for work carried out and dyno time which is fine if your happy and performance gains reflects the amount paid but in this and many other cases it did not which is why car was brought to us to try and rectify mainly the poor drivability of the car which was quite apparent on a prior test drive. The car felt very lame through the rev range and was clearly bogging down through excess fuel and poor burn rate.
We then ran car on dyno and it produced 307.6bhp which was kind of inline with the print out the guy had been given after mapping.
So we set about correcting a few issues I had noticed, one of them was to try running a stock ecu leaving the mapped one aside we then ran car again........ it then produced less bhp (302 @ 1 bar) but torque then increased from a prior 262lbft to 287 lbft at .2 bar less boost and you could clearly feel this increase even on the rollers under load, we ran this on a dawes device and removed the gizmo electronic controller.
After a bit more tinkering with fuelling, ignition and so forth the car eventually made 321.6bhp 299.5 lbft torque at 1.2 bar which is pretty good for a stock turbo and relatively stock setup (other than a quality fpr we fitted) I think you would agree.
The real test came on the final test drive. And wow! was a different car altogether in terms of how it drove, response throughout the rev range and sheer torque being very apparent,
All this was reflected by a big beaming grin on the guys face which in itself makes the job all worthwhile to me. The total inclusive of labour, parts fitted, dyno time & vat was under £400 (so almost half of what he paid before and went away with a faster, healthier car) He also has an 'un-needed' Nistune and boost controller to sell on if he wishes or keep for future remap if higher power levels were ever required.
So once again 'simplicity wins'
Heres another example of a car we ran on dyno yesterday after fitting a forged engine, hybrid t28, fmic kit, descent clutch & uprated redesigned fork but other than that just good stock injectors, afm, with relevant sensors all in gwo, strong fuel pump & wiring to it.
Those who came to the RR day may well remember this pile of ebay tat which was nailed together in a very sorry looking state.
Well not any more as it made 337bhp with 313lbft torque, base ignition pulled back to 18* plugs gapped to 0.8mm, running v power. Figure was achieved at 1.2bar, afrs low to mid 11s under full load, no knock detected by use of electronic ear detection. (please note this car is with everything in perfect working order and using a well built forged internal engine with ported / flowed head, stock cams, reshimmed)
At 1.3bar it produced 347bhp
but was leaning out dangerously with injectors and maf beyond a safe duty level which is why we backed off ignition and dropped boost level.
The cars power delivery is awesome and you would think it was a 400+bhp car by the way it drives so im confident the guy will be over the moon when he collects her next week from us
covered his name on graph as he may not want results shown of his car for all to see
johnny gtir wrote:It's a case of what you really need without over complicating thigs for your set up.
That just about sums up many things with these cars we have and many other vehicles too.
A cars setup in terms of power its running, the intended use of car i.e road, rally, sprint, circuit or drag use should be determined from the outset prior to build taking place.
Many people do not do this so have a car which is inappropriate for the use they desire as they have over complicated things in certain areas thinking that it will be better because theres more bits added.
In many cases with just a fast road car you don't need all the little electronic gadgets, so called bolt on bits that claim to give you extra power but in the end just give you more troubles and grief. As Johnny said 'simplicity is the key'
After getting involved with the tuning / mapping of these cars and others one thing I have learned from people that have been in the motorsport tuning game their whole lives is that many vehicles are best kept simple and a hell of a lot do not even require mapping as such, all they need is fuelling and ignition tweaks and carefully monitored afr's and knock levels throughout the rev range and providing both are acceptable with relevant ignition and fuelling in good order as well as accurate info being supplied to ecu then there is no need for full mapping to be carried out on the car. In a few cases now weve seen far better results on the dyno with people using this approach.
One recent pulsar we had in was running Nistune at a relatively low boost level of just under 1.2bar, car produced under 310bhp on the dyno printout passed to us,It had been mapped a month or so prior by a certain tuner who charged in excess of £760 for work carried out and dyno time which is fine if your happy and performance gains reflects the amount paid but in this and many other cases it did not which is why car was brought to us to try and rectify mainly the poor drivability of the car which was quite apparent on a prior test drive. The car felt very lame through the rev range and was clearly bogging down through excess fuel and poor burn rate.
We then ran car on dyno and it produced 307.6bhp which was kind of inline with the print out the guy had been given after mapping.
So we set about correcting a few issues I had noticed, one of them was to try running a stock ecu leaving the mapped one aside we then ran car again........ it then produced less bhp (302 @ 1 bar) but torque then increased from a prior 262lbft to 287 lbft at .2 bar less boost and you could clearly feel this increase even on the rollers under load, we ran this on a dawes device and removed the gizmo electronic controller.
After a bit more tinkering with fuelling, ignition and so forth the car eventually made 321.6bhp 299.5 lbft torque at 1.2 bar which is pretty good for a stock turbo and relatively stock setup (other than a quality fpr we fitted) I think you would agree.
The real test came on the final test drive. And wow! was a different car altogether in terms of how it drove, response throughout the rev range and sheer torque being very apparent,
All this was reflected by a big beaming grin on the guys face which in itself makes the job all worthwhile to me. The total inclusive of labour, parts fitted, dyno time & vat was under £400 (so almost half of what he paid before and went away with a faster, healthier car) He also has an 'un-needed' Nistune and boost controller to sell on if he wishes or keep for future remap if higher power levels were ever required.
So once again 'simplicity wins'
Heres another example of a car we ran on dyno yesterday after fitting a forged engine, hybrid t28, fmic kit, descent clutch & uprated redesigned fork but other than that just good stock injectors, afm, with relevant sensors all in gwo, strong fuel pump & wiring to it.
Those who came to the RR day may well remember this pile of ebay tat which was nailed together in a very sorry looking state.
Well not any more as it made 337bhp with 313lbft torque, base ignition pulled back to 18* plugs gapped to 0.8mm, running v power. Figure was achieved at 1.2bar, afrs low to mid 11s under full load, no knock detected by use of electronic ear detection. (please note this car is with everything in perfect working order and using a well built forged internal engine with ported / flowed head, stock cams, reshimmed)
At 1.3bar it produced 347bhp
but was leaning out dangerously with injectors and maf beyond a safe duty level which is why we backed off ignition and dropped boost level. The cars power delivery is awesome and you would think it was a 400+bhp car by the way it drives so im confident the guy will be over the moon when he collects her next week from us
covered his name on graph as he may not want results shown of his car for all to see
Last edited by GTI-R US on 24th May 2015, 11:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
