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Gtir plenum design

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Gostek
GTI-R US
6 posters

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1Gtir plenum design Empty Gtir plenum design 6th April 2015, 11:10 pm

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

Never really gave it much thought before but after doing some tests on our Dyno the other day I found that the wedge design of the gtir plenum is pretty bad really in terms of how it can affect the afr's on individual cylinders

When various sensors are getting around 70% of their duty cycle it appears that no 1&2 cylinders are always running at a leaner state than 3&4 so are much more susceptible to det even though the general afr's from exhaust is well within limits. This would explain why many stock engines suffer damage on the intake side of these particular Pistons through higher cylinder temps

I've recently purchased a knock ears kit so I can now mount upto 6 sensors in varying positions throughout the engine, although monitoring cylinders 1&2 will be more beneficial which makes me think that the oe knock sensor should ideally be placed between cyl 1&2 rather than in the middle of block
This is all caused through the poor design of the inlet plenum as the boost intake pressure is greater in the wedge part of plenum so when fuel / air is put into those cylinders the afr will be leaner than the other two.

Makes me wonder if their is benefit afterall in having a box type plenum
Certainly food for thought

Il be looking into other ways of monitoring these cylinders in future or other ways to remedy the problem.
Maybe by running slightly larger injectors on those two would cure this but don't know until I've tried a few things out.
unless your running a lot of boost otr it should not be a prob but on racetrack it will definately be an issue
So would like to find a solution


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GTI-R-US.co.uk
 In association with
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Nissan Performance & Tuning Centre
Services provided

Forge Engine rebuilds to specification
Body Restoration, Fabrication, Repair
Paint refinishing facilities
Ecu re-mapping-Performance upgrades
Auto Diagnostics, Injector cleaning  
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General Servicing, Mots, tyre fitting
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2Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 6th April 2015, 11:23 pm

Gostek

Gostek
Events Organiser
Events Organiser

Tbh i would try box type plenum first I might be wrong but using 2 bigger injectors would put different load on them cylinders and would throw lambda out on individual cylinders (i might be little drunk but i think you would need 2 o2 sensors to keep it right) so ideally box plenum with centre throttle body  something like rb25det

https://bbmgarage.co.uk/

3Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 6th April 2015, 11:32 pm

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

Yes centre position intake (maybe a Y type pipe coming in) would equalise pressure much better than it being at one end for sure.

I don't think the 02 sensor would be affected at all as it monitors afr from exhaust elbow so if those 2 are running leaner than the other 2 it would make little difference to lambda reading, plus the lambda only works in open closed loop anyway so is only reading under light load.

The only thing I'm not sure about at the moment is injector frequency and pulsewidth as it will differ to the stock 444s but will try a few things out to see what happens


_________________
GTI-R-US.co.uk
 In association with
Torque Of The South Motorsport

Nissan Performance & Tuning Centre
Services provided

Forge Engine rebuilds to specification
Body Restoration, Fabrication, Repair
Paint refinishing facilities
Ecu re-mapping-Performance upgrades
Auto Diagnostics, Injector cleaning  
Race & Suspension setup
General Servicing, Mots, tyre fitting
Full workshop facilities
http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

4Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 6th April 2015, 11:48 pm

Gostek

Gostek
Events Organiser
Events Organiser

Lambda i meant air to fuel ratio you don't wan't cylinders leaning out and detonation. I've read article about it by dave walker from emerald but it was ages ago... But tbh it was about n/a engine i never thought that would be a problem with turbo as pressure in plenum should be equal... you learn something everyday.


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5Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 6th April 2015, 11:49 pm

Gostek

Gostek
Events Organiser
Events Organiser

Just out of curiosity what are you using to check injector duration etc??


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6Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 6th April 2015, 11:52 pm

Gostek

Gostek
Events Organiser
Events Organiser

Ok this is stella talking now but if cyl 1&2 getting too much air what about welding baffle in plenum between cyl no 2 and 3 to stop what i think is called ram effect...

https://bbmgarage.co.uk/

7Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 6th April 2015, 11:56 pm

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

That's the problem Mike, the pressure isn't equal it's greater in the wedge end of manifold.
Injector duration, pulse, etc can be checked with a multimeter or basic scanner so not hard to do

Think if you was gonna go through welding baffles etc would be easier to just change the thing and fit a box type plenum


_________________
GTI-R-US.co.uk
 In association with
Torque Of The South Motorsport

Nissan Performance & Tuning Centre
Services provided

Forge Engine rebuilds to specification
Body Restoration, Fabrication, Repair
Paint refinishing facilities
Ecu re-mapping-Performance upgrades
Auto Diagnostics, Injector cleaning  
Race & Suspension setup
General Servicing, Mots, tyre fitting
Full workshop facilities
http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

8Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 7th April 2015, 12:06 am

Gostek

Gostek
Events Organiser
Events Organiser

So now all those single throttle manifolds make some sense... Plenum looks equal i always thought people were using them because itb were very rough. Oh and i was asking about stuff to check duration because i've had snap on modus or some other crap but in data it never showed injection duration etc just basic stuff


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9Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 7th April 2015, 12:12 am

Gostek

Gostek
Events Organiser
Events Organiser

Ok last one and i'm going to bed.. But if you look at gtr plenums they're going in to quite sharp wedge too scratch

https://bbmgarage.co.uk/

10Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 7th April 2015, 1:15 am

gtir_woody

gtir_woody
moderator
moderator

Interesting read mate, always wondered about it but never seen/ heard any data on it.

11Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 7th April 2015, 3:09 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician

unbolt the top of the plenum, chop it off round flange & tig up a straighter design with bullnose end & intake pipe angle to first 2 ports is more direct line, cad design effort on this could be good but expect a couple of basic principles built & tested could lead to improved final design better than original.

12Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 7th April 2015, 3:50 am

gtir_woody

gtir_woody
moderator
moderator

Yeah it wouldnt be overly hard to change the design of the top of the plenum.

13Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 7th April 2015, 8:03 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician

Yeh not huge amount of room for drastic change but would of thought with bit of effort & real world testing on a RR you could find something that will physically fit the layout & improve equal flow. possibly top more central entry in a ovaling pipe that feeds in a V shape the full plenum length & curved back wall, this would also remove/reduce the standard 90° joiner to plenum.
Some knowledge & good cad software & flow bench would be useful but also knocking up a couple of ideas that work in the available layout space & tested on RR would be cheap R&D for possible solution.

14Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 7th April 2015, 9:04 am

gtir_woody

gtir_woody
moderator
moderator

Yeah I've never used that 90 joiner on any of my cars. Had a pipe made up to keep the air flow straight into the plenum. If the evidence supports it I'm sure there would be gains from changing the plenum. However a lot of people have had really good results using the standard one, so changing isn't a must unless all the other supporting mods are done first.

15Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 7th April 2015, 10:47 am

ducie54

ducie54

What are using to measure individual AFR's BOB? I've read good info about the aem kit. If you are just using one sensor and moving it without back pressure compensation ur results will be inaccurate.

Also look at the plex knock sensor kit.

16Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 8th April 2015, 1:03 am

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

Not used anything yet as not sure how I can measure afr's on each cylinder unless I fit a sensor to each branch of manifold.

I'm just going by what I've found in terms of det nearly always being on those particular cylinders on stock engines

Have a few ideas with certain tests to determine if I'm correct or talking out my arse lol
So will come back to this once I have some real evidence


_________________
GTI-R-US.co.uk
 In association with
Torque Of The South Motorsport

Nissan Performance & Tuning Centre
Services provided

Forge Engine rebuilds to specification
Body Restoration, Fabrication, Repair
Paint refinishing facilities
Ecu re-mapping-Performance upgrades
Auto Diagnostics, Injector cleaning  
Race & Suspension setup
General Servicing, Mots, tyre fitting
Full workshop facilities
http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

17Gtir plenum design Empty Re: Gtir plenum design 8th April 2015, 10:35 am

RO_SUNNY

RO_SUNNY

I always thought in making an intake manifold with a dual plenum design......but I don't know what will be the interest in such, since the development will cost.

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