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DIY Gearbox brace how to make

+7
shroom
Mr B
gtir_woody
PartyPete
Greygtir
ROB_IOW
GTI-R US
11 posters

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26DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 8:38 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician

Yes the internal one replaces 5th gears & holds the 2 shafts in place via a figure 8 looking shaft collar brace.
For most people a shot peened well built standard box will do well, next step in cost is PAR followed by Quaife then PPG.
Image below of 5th gear shaft collar brace, one in par kit & 1 for standard >
DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Par_with_cuff
DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Gtir_cuff

27DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 9:14 am

gtir_woody

gtir_woody
moderator
moderator

That brace would be so good if it wasn't so impractical for a street car Sad

28DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 10:06 am

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club

So do you shot peen the box casing itself or freeze it? Or both?

29DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 1:44 pm

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician

Casing is generally cleaned up in terms of casting flash/seems & just cryo treated.
Gears can be cryo & shot peened although just quality job on shot peening is the norm.
Likes of PAR gear kit are shot peened as standard, the current PAR kit straight cut syncro with design revisions & needle bearings is quite a good design & price good too.

30DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 2:28 pm

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

I never had my case cryo treated or anything, it just ran a f/g brace at the tail end which was sufficient and kept everything into place even after all these years ive never busted a gear casing

you can get aluminium shotpeened by using a slightly different process but I wouldn't advise that due to thicknesses of casing, if anything I think it could actually weaken it further
shotpeening removes the risk of stress related fractures by around 20%
what it does not do (as someone had been told today by a firm ) is increase the strength by 20-25% that's just not true

http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

31DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 2:43 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club

What sort of power has been run through that box bob? Is that 570bhp one that was used for drag?

32DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 2:48 pm

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

yeah had been used in 2 cars both running in excess of 400hp on the road then finally the drag car which was just over 570hp where it was fitted for a good couple of years

http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

33DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 2:50 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club

We're the gears in that just shot peened and nothing else? Sorry for all the questions but want to make sure I get this right, would it not be an idea to have it froze as well whilst it's being done and polished?

34DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 3:02 pm

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

no they were just shotpeened nothing else, was rebuilt with new bearings, seals ect that's it

http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

35DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 4:22 pm

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician

Shot peening just produces a skin on the surface of the part that initial cracks have very hard time developing thus greatly improving fatigue strength of components.
Other major thing to be looked at is your shaft end floats when building the box as excessive float is a main player in case failure.

36DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 7:39 pm

shroom

shroom
moderator
moderator

Interesting thread interesting read. Would be interesting which way you ho Pete. How much is shot peening and cryo treating? I guess the box would need to be rebuilt too

37DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 7:49 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club

I'm getting different prices atm, got to ring some where tomorrow my mate uses for his garage, about £300 to strip and put together, and then send the gear set off and about £200 to have peened, but if the box wants any new bearings that would be extra, had a quote for nearly a grand early for a company that does the whole lot but that seemed a bit steep

38DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 7:53 pm

Gostek

Gostek
Events Organiser
Events Organiser

Wow £300  to strip and put together?? It  took me couple of hours to replace all bearings on my mates car.... what rates they've got Shocked

https://bbmgarage.co.uk/

39DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 8:01 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club

Wish I could do it my self but never done a box so wouldn't trust myself to take it to piece's

40DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 19th January 2015, 8:39 pm

johnny gtir

johnny gtir
moderator
moderator

Alot of places are 300-350 to strip and rebuild

41DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 20th January 2015, 4:28 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician

Main thing with shot peening is picking someone who specifically into gearbox work as requires good technique/experience to be effective in all the pits & edges of a gears surface, too little peening means no real gains & to much can overstress the surface .

42DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 20th January 2015, 11:48 pm

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

 Years ago when I had mine doneMr B wrote:Shot peening just produces a skin on the surface of the part that initial cracks have very hard time developing thus greatly improving fatigue strength of components.
Other major thing to be looked at is your shaft end floats when building the box as excessive float is a main player in case failure.


That's not entirely correct as it does not produce a skin as such
It was done predominantly to eradicate or reduce stress fractures from cast mouldings of certain materials

Basically the process involves blasting an item such as a gear with ball bearings of various sizes which then adds strength to it by altering the  molecular structure of the item being done as the surface will then be dimpled and stress points spread out rather than in one place
This reduces the risk of a stress fractur

I'm sure someone could google it or something and put a more detailed description but in laymans terms that's pretty much what I was told when I had mine done.

All I can remember is that it was carried out by a company in Northampton which specialised in this kind of work.
I removed the gears and just sent them down to them and at the time they charged around £5 per gear which is bloody cheap considering what the box has been through and how well its lasted

http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

43DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 21st January 2015, 12:14 am

nomad

nomad
Admin
Admin

https://youtu.be/AgPsxoZnEa0
.....there you go Wink

44DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 21st January 2015, 2:19 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician

GTI-R US wrote:
 Years ago when I had mine doneMr B wrote:Shot peening just produces a skin on the surface of the part that initial cracks have very hard time developing thus greatly improving fatigue strength of components.
Other major thing to be looked at is your shaft end floats when building the box as excessive float is a main player in case failure.


That's not entirely correct as it does not produce a skin as such
It was done predominantly to eradicate or reduce stress fractures from cast mouldings of certain materials

Basically the process involves blasting an item such as a gear with ball bearings of various sizes which then adds strength to it by altering the  molecular structure of the item being done as the surface will then be dimpled and stress points spread out rather than in one place
This reduces the risk of a stress fractur

I'm sure someone could google it or something and put a more detailed description but in laymans terms that's pretty much what I was told when I had mine done.

All I can remember is that it was carried out by a company in Northampton which specialised in this kind of work.
I removed the gears and just sent them down to them and at the time they charged around £5 per gear which is bloody cheap considering what the box has been through and how well its lasted

Skin maybe not the best word but from what I understand of the process the shot peening produces compressed layer of probably around 2thou & this is what I call the skin. The concept is the crack fractures don't start easily in the compressed layer/skin.
Size & speed of peening shot is very critical as is full coverage & overlaping. The dimples deformation left are good for helping retain oil on the parts apparently, some people add protective wear coatings after peening.
That company in Northampton still going ? prices sound reasonable & even if almost doubled would still be good ...

45DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 21st January 2015, 6:10 am

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club

Bob was it called Sandwell by any chance?

46DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 21st January 2015, 10:34 am

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

yes believe it was Sandwell, was around 10 years ago but that name sure rings a bell

I spoke to a chap there after being given there number by someone I used to race bikes with as he had his gearset done on an R1
at the time I had (like you)never understood what it was all about but was looking for a cheapish option to strengthen the gearset
he advised me not to get the casing done but just the gearset and selectors, in total from memory it cost just under £180 plus the cost of rebuild of the box which I had done locally

then go spend £££££ on quaifes and other boxes which all broke but the little shotpeened shitter lives on after receiving severe abuse throughout the years Rolling Eyes

http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

47DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 21st January 2015, 11:03 am

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club

goodpost
This pleases me lol, this is the route I'm going down! I'm very tempted to get a second box and have that done and see just out of interest how much the standard box will actually take?
GTI-R US wrote:yes believe it was Sandwell, was around 10 years ago but that name sure rings a bell

I spoke to a chap there after being given there number by someone I used to race bikes with as he had his gearset done on an R1
at the time I had (like you)never understood what it was all about but was looking for a cheapish option to strengthen the gearset
he advised me not to get the casing done but just the gearset and selectors, in total from memory it cost just under £180 plus the cost of rebuild of the box which I had done locally

then go spend £££££ on quaifes and other boxes which all broke but the little shotpeened shitter lives on after receiving severe abuse throughout the years Rolling Eyes

48DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 22nd January 2015, 1:18 pm

PartyPete

PartyPete
the one star club
the one star club

Right then, iv spoken to Sandwell, to confirm exactly what it is I will need shot peening,
1. Crown wheel
2. Pinion
3. Gears, how many are there? Is it 11?
4. Selector forks, again how many? Is it 2 or 3?
5. Input shaft.
Is there any thing iv missed guys and are these the correct quantities? So I can get an exact price! It'll be around the £200 mark. They also said they will super finish it (rem process) for £200 for the lot, they say this will further enhance the fatigue life and enhance cooling (apparantly) cheers

49DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 23rd January 2015, 11:15 am

Mr B

Mr B
gtir technician
gtir technician

Surface finishing is quite good for gearboxes as the reduced friction = reduced surface stresses ...
Main thing to do after investing in the treatment is make top effort on rebuild & keep end floats minimal.
Think a lot of people who had bad gearbox issues had more than one which tends indicate possibly individual usage or way they being built had some role in the failures.

50DIY Gearbox brace how to make - Page 2 Empty Re: DIY Gearbox brace how to make 24th May 2015, 1:26 am

GTI-R US

GTI-R US
Management
Management

Yeah there was a certain so called forum gearbox builder that loved to build boxes that would fail swiftly after first use Rolling Eyes
Over shimming was one of his main traits and lack of any knowledge being the other lol

http://www.gti-r-us.co.uk www.force500.com

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